Dave Karlsgodt 0:00
Welcome to the campus energy and sustainability podcast. In each episode, we'll talk with leading campus professionals thought leaders and engineers and innovators addressing the unique challenges and opportunities facing higher ed and corporate campuses. Our discussions will range from energy conservation and efficiency to planning and finance, from building science to social science, from energy systems to food systems. We hope you're ready to learn, share and ultimately accelerate your institution towards solutions. I'm your host, Dave Karlsgodt, I'm a principal at Fovea, an energy, carbon and business planning firm.

Anne Eskridge 0:34
And even our students say as they graduate and they move on, it's like I will be a bus rider for life because of what I get as a part of my experience at the University of Washington. I mean, we we hear students say, I will choose where I live in the future to make sure it is near transit. I mean, that's, that's, that's social behavior change.

Dave Karlsgodt 0:55
And this episode, you'll hear my interview with Anne Eskridge, Director of transportation Services at the University of Washington. I hope regular listeners will find this interview to be a nice complement to my conversation with Arjun Sarkar in Episode 27. In that episode, we focus primarily on advanced fuels and vehicle electrification. In this interview, we'll also touch on a few of those topics, but she'll quickly widen the sustainability lens to discuss regional transportation, car sharing, electric bikes and scooters, transportation, equity issues, waste, reuse, water, and more. I think you'll find Anne both deeply knowledgeable and disarmingly entertaining, as she shares lessons learned from her storied career at the University of Washington. Be sure to listen to the end of this complete episode for the full sustainability odyssey. I hope you enjoy this interview with Anne Eskridge recorded November 27 2019.

Anne, it's nice to have you on the podcast today.

Anne Eskridge 1:52
Wonderful to be here today.

Dave Karlsgodt 1:54
I appreciate that we're actually in your living room. So maybe I should give some background on how we ended up here. was talking with your colleague Claudia Frere-Anderson at the AASHE conference over lunch earlier this fall, I was talking about some of the projects we were working on. We're working on a series about women working in male dominated fields. And then another one about fleet management. And Claudia said, Oh, you have to talk to Anne so I guess that's how we ended up here. So but then when we did our prep call, I was kind of hoping to pull you into either of those projects. But then I quickly realized that we had way too much to talk about. So we're here. Let's just do a full episode. Sound good to you.

Anne Eskridge 2:30
Sounds wonderful. I'd be glad to help.

Dave Karlsgodt 2:32
I had the pleasure of working with the University of Washington a couple of years ago on some long range planning projects, but there are so many things I didn't get to touch. So there were a lot of initiatives that I think you actually have been involved with over your last 20 years or so. Let's touch on as many of those as we can. And then our goal is just to draw out some of the themes that arise through there. Okay, tell us who you are.

Anne Eskridge 2:52
Alright, well, my name is Anne Eskridge, and I'm the director of transportation services currently at the University of Washington. I just celebrated a 20 year anniversary. So it's been interesting to be in one place that long and work to try to make a difference and leave the place better than I found it.

Dave Karlsgodt 3:11
That's great. Yeah, we've been in Seattle about the same amount of time that it sounds like. Well, good. Can you give us a little background on just the University of Washington? I think, you know, people in the northwest understand the campus but I'm sure a lot of people around the country don't really realize how big of an institution it is. And just the vastness of the programs.

Anne Eskridge 3:26
Yes. The University of Washington has large shoulders, even in the city of Seattle, we think of it as a city inside of a city. 100,000 people come to campus every day. We have a law school. We have a med school, we have undergraduate and graduate work that goes on. We have our own power plants and a large fleet. We have shuttle services, and it's a robust both residential campus and commuter campus which is interesting. We are both, and it's an exciting place to be.

Dave Karlsgodt 3:58
You work primarily at the Seattle campus right, I know there's also a Bothell campus.

Anne Eskridge 4:02
Yes, we do consulting with Bothell and Tacoma. But my home and my responsibilities are at the Seattle campus.

Dave Karlsgodt 4:08
All right, great. Okay. And your particular role right now is around transportation. But maybe let's start backwards. And we'll get to that. Tell us where did you start? Because you didn't necessarily start just in transportation, right?

Anne Eskridge 4:20
Actually, I did. I started initially in transportation, but not with the role that I have now, the transportation role that I had when I joined the University of Washington, was in property and transport services. So I was responsible for the university's surplus program, and that's a surplus really and reuse program. We only have one to 2% waste out of about 80,000 items the university surplus is each year I also oversaw the university's shuttle programs are moving services on campus, and our recycling and solid waste program. And so It was also a large role and shoulder position there as well. Then I went on to serve for nine years in logistics and supply chain management in charge of facility stores. And how I used to talk about that particular role is we have over 100 shops on campus, everything from masons to carpenters to plumbers, and I was a part of the process where we bought everything the university needed to fix itself.

Dave Karlsgodt 5:31
How did that get combined? That seems odd combination of things. Was it just because you were the one that stepped up to do those roles? Are they strategically combined?

Anne Eskridge 5:41
I think it was an oddity to combine stores with moving and surplus but we ended up doing that purely out of architecture and geography in terms of saving the university space in place. But my job that I originally took in, in property and transport services, we call that kind of the transportation hodgepodge meaning everything but what I do now which is oversee our university, you pass program and oversee Parking Services. And then now once again overseeing our fleet and shuttle services. So it was a it was a place to put transportation related programs other than our you pass fleet and parking program.

Dave Karlsgodt 6:24
Was it limited to waste and reuse in transportation related things? Or was that campus wide like

Anne Eskridge 6:29
How recycling and solid waste got combined in is because we had to use so many trucks and vehicles to do that work? Oh, I guess so. Sometimes we sometimes we said hey, we're responsible on campus with everything on wheels. Okay, then wheels underneath it. It was part of a transportation related program, things that were on top of those wheels like moving trucks or recycling and solid waste trucks did the tasks associated with that. So that's how come no, we would tease each other as colleagues. It's like It's got wheels underneath it, then we have something to do with it.

Dave Karlsgodt 7:02
That makes sense, okay, great. Yeah, I hadn't really made that. I guess I should make that connection but you think about piles of stuff in a warehouse, I guess they have for them to be useful moving them around.

Anne Eskridge 7:14
Like like the surplus program, it's hard to believe that we surplus that much a year 80,000 items. So you have trucks that you have to pick it up. We have places where we have to sell it at auction and then we have to load it out to the customers that buy that for reuse sake.

Dave Karlsgodt 7:30
Okay, and I do know that you are a former auctioneer is that directly related to that experience?

Anne Eskridge 7:35
It is, it is. So for 17 years, I served as a University's auctioneer, the very first auctioneer for the University of Washington, they sent me to Missouri for two weeks or auctioneer boot camp and I had fun with a lot of guys with chewing tobacco and Stetson hats and was one of the few women in the room and as a result of that the university was able to save an enormous amount of money by schooling me in a very unique trade. And then me being able to sell the university's goods at a much better price than either giving them for free or the other ways we were trying to sell them. And we built a real robust community of reuse dealers so that the university could get some money for the wonderful things that still had some life in them, and then they could be used elsewhere.

Dave Karlsgodt 8:25
Got it. Okay. So now in your current role, tell me a little bit about the the scale of what you're managing. So you'd mentioned the past program, which I guess is that's like cards that people can use to get on a bus or a train or

Anne Eskridge 8:36
Yes, certainly there now transit cards and passes that people use all over the country in the United States now. So we have what's called the Orca card, and we're partners with transit across the Puget Sound region. We have to get 100,000 folks to campus every day only. This is our big pride point, only 17% of that hundred thousand get in a single occupancy vehicle. And so you can imagine what we're then dealing with the other 83% they have an orca card and they use transit or they walk or they bike. We even have a tiny little category for scooters and skateboarders are relative to how folks get to campus each day. We work with King County Metro, Pierce County Transit, community transit, all our transit partners, I'm sure I don't want to leave Sound Transit out of that all of our partners to have a contractual relationship in terms of services they provide. We then have the programmatic delivery responsibility for having a way to do that. And that's a Husky card, actually where it resides and that's how they get on and off transit without having to carry cash and it's tied into their tuition as students and fees as our faculty and staff. And so the business transactions happen through the Orca system.

Dave Karlsgodt 9:55
Okay, so what does that actually look like? Do you then get in a room with all those are organizations and negotiate deals are long term contracts are. Tell me more about

Anne Eskridge 10:05
We do. We wish we had a little bit more elbow capacity under the basketball net in terms of negotiating strength in terms of dealing with our transit partners of Metro alone, which is one of the most, if not the most robust transit system in the nation. It's one of the transit systems that's growing still. we compose at the University of Washington one and every nine rides on King County Metro, and that is a wow, currently because of the need for the transit agencies to have a share associated with their fare box revenues. In terms of the money they take in for rides, we aren't able necessarily to push often associated with what is needed negotiating in the transit arena. So we do our best relative to our youth fairs and our senior fairs are relative to what we are and we're also Right now for a student fair, and hope to get some relief and as far as the fact that we are, but we are our folks pay full price full ride for what they get. So it's a it's an expense to the institution and it's a can expense to our travelers.

Dave Karlsgodt 11:15
Yeah. So if I'm a student at the University of Washington, why would I get a you pass card then just get an orca card generally, is there any benefit to me there?

Anne Eskridge 11:23
Oh, definitely. And the benefit comes from the university versus the transit agents.

Dave Karlsgodt 11:28
Okay, so you guys are paying like subsidizing it for your students.

Anne Eskridge 11:31
We subsidize that and the way we subsidize, it is the other half of my role at the university and that is Parking Services. So we have 12,200 parking spaces on campus. You can imagine that even though we only have a 17%, single occupancy vehicle trip to campus rate that we still have 3000 to 4000 visitors a day that come to campus that have to park and then we have folks that still do drive to campus, because the Kids and doctors appointments and sundry things that make them need a car in terms of their business mobility needs. But the good news is, is how the university chose then to subsidize our transit goals is through giving a portion of the funds I gather for parking revenues to pay for transit. Oh, nice. Okay, so a student would never want to go out and buy an Orca card on their own because the they only pay for a quarter of service. And that may mean multiple trips every day only at $4 a quarter, and then the university chips in a bit as well from their central funds. So between what we provide in terms of parking revenue and what the institution provides, it ends up being a great deal for students and for faculty and staff because that is the same way we take care of subsidizing faculty and staff as well,

Dave Karlsgodt 12:52
Right. Okay. University of Washington seems to have more than the average campus a number of different modes to get into campus that may be different than I'm thinking of like Michigan State, I've spent a lot of time there or some of the other places are very car centric. I know we have the Burke-Gilman Trail we have the light rail going in now. I mean, how much of that comes under your purview? Or how does that weigh into

Anne Eskridge 13:15
those modes are huge for the university. So I'll start with what you gave the hat tip towards and that is the Burke-Gilman trail. The Burke-Gilman trail in the city of Seattle is again using the metaphor such a crown jewel of the biking community extends north and south and over to Ballard further east in amazing ways in terms of bringing bikers to campus and very, very proud of that particular resource in the city. We're also thrilled think it's three and a half years, four and a half years you'll have to do the math and correct me relative to how long we've had our link light rail station open at the Husky Stadium spot on was made a huge difference not only in everyone's daily commute, but you can imagine with 80,000 fans coming to the seven High Holy Days of football at the university each year that for us to be able to reduce our carbon footprint by having a light rail station right at our stadium spot has just been magnificent that people don't have to pile in their car to come to a football game or a men's basketball game or all of the intercollegiate sports and athletic events. That has been tremendous in terms of our fan base and bracing that way to get to a game or other event at the stadium. And so the availability of light rail right on campus has been enormous. And of course, we have three stations, more light rail is headed our way and that can't but help the planet help our pocketbook. help our faculty Students and staff in terms of way to get to campus and I was teasing earlier about kind of skateboarders and scooters and whatnot, but students really use the. And so we have a lot of students that live within a mile of campus. Others that don't and use buses and our light rail systems. You know, it's a very livable workable, walkable, ridable place to get to. Our campus is unusual in that it has a enormous difference geographically and geologically. We have what are called critical slopes on campus where our lower part of our campus has an enormous elevation climb to the central part of campus. And so it's interesting with now Bike Share on campus is that people jump on a bike even more so than jumping on transit now, which we're tickled about and travel up and down in terms of the elevations on campus and even students and faculty and staff using our bikes. Your program for the smaller trips, helps the environment helps our pocketbook and actually helps their own personal health. Which is great because there is a lot out there about how different transportation modes actually run down to everybody's better public health.

Dave Karlsgodt 16:17
Right. Yeah. When how much of a difference is the electrification of those bikes made? I know because, at least for me, personally, I don't think I ever used a bike share in Seattle until the electric bikes came out. I've taken them down to the University of Washington station to get on light rail before I've got it.

Anne Eskridge 16:32
I really believe that all the electrification of bikes is a game changer. I think it will even reduce some of our carbon footprint issues. And transit already does that enormously. So the idea that people will be getting off a bus because that's usually what happens, or ride a bike and be able to ride a bike to campus is really exciting. And we've just opened three new bike houses at the University of Washington. Because we're marching towards meeting our campus masterplan goals of having doubling our bike spaces on campus and what I mean by bike spaces are secured by parking on campus. And in each of those bike houses, because of what's happening with electric bikes, we're installing ways for people to charge those while they're in class or at work. So it's even changing how we build bike houses these days because of the use of electric bikes.

Dave Karlsgodt 17:27
Okay, so that Yeah, some of these are, these are the personal bikes. I know there's a lot of bike share programs, and you just get on a bike and it really charged up

Anne Eskridge 17:34
so it's both and I call you know, our I call the bike share is kind of the incidental use, but the bike houses that we have, this is commuting use, and so we're tickled to provide a resource right inside where they park, you know, their folks that live far north and far south, and without that charge, they wouldn't be able to make it back and forth each day. So it's great.

Dave Karlsgodt 17:57
No, that's awesome. Yeah, one thing I you know, I Imagine people that are not in a city like Seattle and don't have a, you know, a Burke-Gilman trail, which is an old rail line running through the middle of their campus and don't have light rail going to their campus. Some of that's out of your control, right? It just happened to be going on. Yes, what was in your control to help make that happen? Because I'm sure it wasn't completely out of your control either. Like how how did being a proponent of those things? I mean, why did they put the light rail station at University of Washington and not somewhere else,

Anne Eskridge 18:26
Two big reasons. And really not much beyond that maybe others can think of more. One would be truly the the birth of the U pass. The birth of the U pass is just really phenomenal. The whole idea that the university would get behind their many colleges and universities that have what is called a campus circulator, which is a bus that goes around campus and picks people up from various key points either related to transit or related to pedestrian traffic, and take them around our university thought so much to differently than that, and that is we want to bring them here to campus from the whole region, not just get them around and make it easier on campus with a campus circulator. So the students and faculty and staff but it was mainly students that worked on it at the time of this whole idea of a subsidized transit pass, started bringing people to campus in all kinds of different ways, both lower costs for the sake of the matriculating students, lower cost for our service workers, lower costs for our faculty and staff that are working in education, not always the highest paid field in the world. And so this beautiful you pass and because then people really embraced transit. And sometimes, you know, it's like, who wants to ride the bus, you know, it wasn't always seen as a terribly elegant way to get to work in our car culture and in your beautiful car. Whoever mom or dad's hand me down car for the students. People really embrace transit. So some of how this has happened is really because of the past. And we have an emergency ride home program. So that parent that's worried about getting to the school or the kindergarten or a sick child, or doing whatever need made it available for folks to be able to use emergency rides. That took a lot of fear of what if I don't have my car?

Dave Karlsgodt 20:24
Okay, no, that's, that's brilliant.

Anne Eskridge 20:26
That was embedded in it from the very beginning, because there was a worry about what what if, what if? And so

Dave Karlsgodt 20:33
When was the very beginning like when did how long is this?

Anne Eskridge 20:35
Oh it's been over 20 years. I wish I had the actual date committed to memory. I think it's been 24, 25 years, you know, over two decades of this kind of thing. So that's created literally a critical mass of transit riders. And even our students say as they graduate and they move on, it's like I will be a bus rider for life because of what I do. Get as a part of my experience at the University of Washington. I mean, we we hear students say, I will choose where I live in the future to make sure it is near transit. I mean, that's, that's, that's social behavior change. That's a whole kind of see to see change in terms of how people see their lives and their commutes because of that. And then the second piece is something that's just a function of where we are and how big we are and what we do at this campus. And that is 100,000 people come every day. So why not build a transit stop? Sure. And we're getting a second one. So it just makes sense with where people travel in the Puget Sound region each day to put facilities and stations here, because here's a spot people were coming to almost 365 days a year. Certainly that is true specially for our medical facilities.

Dave Karlsgodt 21:54
Ya know that that totally makes sense. So it was a bit of a setup question. But it is something I think that I want to draw out in some of these conversations because people will point well it's fine for Seattle to do that they were already set up to do it but there's a reason why we're set up to do it is what I'm taking away and I like

Anne Eskridge 22:12
There were some cultural forces that help that happen.

Dave Karlsgodt 22:15
Yeah. So I noticed in reading your background you actually have a psychology degree as your undergraduate is that

Anne Eskridge 22:21
that's true actually have an undergrad degree in psychology, Bible and theology, I have a triple degree. The Psychology ends up being the one that kind of you know, goes on the Billboard but yes, it's a psych degree.

Dave Karlsgodt 22:34
Okay, how much of that kind of crept into your work now?

Anne Eskridge 22:37
Um, I would say an enormous amount. I really do believe that understanding human beings and their choices and their motivations is enormous. A good example of that is like the use of light rail I talked about bus riding being let's let's call it the blue collar way of coming to work. I'm being fun with labels here. Well, light rail, kind of transit, white collar and a bit gentrified. But what's interesting about that, it's like that played into people's behavior sociologically, psychologically, it's like, oh, maybe this isn't so bad. And so folks started using light rail, and then it's like, oh, maybe I can use a bus and then all of a sudden the bus became more attractive. And I think that is actually a little bit of psychology or I would call it more kind of social behavior in terms of what is this all about? We really think in terms of what we have to do to get 17% more folks out of their single occupancy vehicles, we actually have to do we think psychologically based research about what would motivate them to get out of their car and into transit. So I think I'm going to actually in the coming year, use probably our site my psychology degree quite a bit In terms of framing the questions and figuring out human motivation as to what would it take? What are the barriers both psychologically and practically and logistically of getting people, even even more people into a transit arena, we're going to do real life action research in terms of social behavior. So Hey, folks out there kids that are still in college, you know, majoring in psychology there, you're great ways to apply it and day to day life. That's awesome.

Dave Karlsgodt 24:30
So how far do you think it can go?

Anne Eskridge 24:32
We've been given a goal by the city as part of our campus master plan of moving from 19%, 17 to 19%, down to 12%. We hope we certainly can bust that a bit. But that's going to be a stretch goal for us in the next eight years, eight to nine years. We've got to figure out how to do that. And I'm glad we've got a goal that gives us something very specific to shoot for. And I think when we do the initial assessment of the 17 to 19%, that are still behind the wheel. We've really got to look at out of that percentage who can give up their vehicle and transit that way and who can't. I'm still very worried in terms of equity and transit issues associated with the fact that we aren't Chicago, New York or Boston. And what I mean by that is, transit doesn't run in a robust way in our region, late at night and early in the morning. That's a problem. That's a problem, particularly for our service workers, those that work in the hospital, those that work in our food services, those that are our trades, men and women, we've got to do better in terms of extending our service hours. So I'm concerned not only about behaviors as to why people drive but why people have to drive and some of that is outside of individual choice. It's because they don't have a transit option. And so they have to do otherwise.

Dave Karlsgodt 25:59
Those are the things that you as an institution can work on, you can nudge people in the direction of behavior change if it's their choice, but you can maybe work to change schedules. Right.

Anne Eskridge 26:08
And I would say I was remiss earlier with one of your questions about what we're negotiating with transit is that we may not be able to budge them much on our transit prices for cost of ride, but we are definitely trying to push them towards longer hours of service early in the morning and late at night. So if there's anything where we're trying to say this isn't equitable in terms of only having transit choices at peak travel hours, in terms of what we would consider regular eight to five kind of communities, you know, we have a hospital that runs 24 hours a day. We have students that and and faculty and staff that come to campus and are with us all day that need to eat and make their way through their day and Have services provided we have 600 acres of facilities and hundreds of buildings that need our trades people to be able to attend to them to kind of keep the lights on and the toilets, flushing the transit agencies have got to do better at providing longer times of service so that things aren't so shaved at the beginning in the end of people's work hours that they can't get to work and back home in a reasonable way. It's, it's a travesty to have an incredible benefit of a you pass and our union staff just did some amazing bargaining and they have now there you pass fully subsidized and not to be able to use a benefit because the time of service of our transit partners can't allow them to get on a bus or a light rail train and get to and from work is a gift they can't open.

Dave Karlsgodt 27:52
Yeah, it'd be like having insurance but the doctor won't take it for example.

Anne Eskridge 27:57
So yeah, you know, here's this lovely gift But you can't open it. And we want our transit partners to figure out a better way in terms of their service hours. Okay.

Dave Karlsgodt 28:07
Yeah, no, that's that's as as I had hoped for this is really interesting to see how all these different pieces come together because that's, you've got infrastructure, you've got city government negotiations, you've got equity issues, you've got logistical issues.

Anne Eskridge 28:20
Yeah. And those equity issues are critical. And we need to make sure they're not at the bottom of the pile, but they're in our thoughts at the top of the pile in terms of our priorities.

Dave Karlsgodt 28:28
Yeah. How do you go about that? Because I, you know, if you're looking at, you know, the number of potential riders at a particular time of day, those are going to be the times where the numbers are going to be way down. So what are some ways that you like look at metrics differently? Or, or is that still a work in progress on how you make the case for that?

Anne Eskridge 28:44
Well, certainly metrics play a huge part. It isn't Johnny or Susie come recently, it's intentionally remembering that everyone isn't in the same logistical stream of supporting our business. This is throughout the Puget Sound region or our educational institutions, whether it's University of Washington and all the myriad of other colleges and community colleges in the area. We think of our big campuses like Boeing, we think of our big campuses like Microsoft, we've got to think outside the eight to five box. And we've got to remember, all of those shift workers all across the spectrum of the day is what keeps the heart pumping and the circulatory system going, and the robustness of our whole economic system. We need to make sure we're not just looking at eight to five commuter. So I think it's it's putting that at the top of the list. It's like what can we do first, and then we know we have this whole foundational group of riders, but we've got to kind of flip the pyramid and say, how do we take care of folks equitably first, because everything is supporting that happening by your regular ridership during peak commuter hours.

Dave Karlsgodt 30:05
Got it. Okay. So it's really just a priority order kind of question not so much a

Anne Eskridge 30:10
it is it's putting your money where your mouth is putting your your priorities and your values where your money is and getting that right.

Dave Karlsgodt 30:19
Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. I know there are a couple other topics I wanted to get into one. You you touched on a little bit on procurement. And let's let's just talk about that topic in general.

Anne Eskridge 30:31
Yeah, so I worked in facility services stores as a part of facility services for all of our trades folks on campus. And certainly green purchasing is where you can make a difference in the world. I think all the way back to whether or not that water stays pure air that tree doesn't get cut and remain standing to whether or not that fossil fuel does get burned, bringing it to you. Green purchasing can make a huge difference in How you do business and as far as what you need to do to run an institution, the type of paper you buy, and it's recycle content to a type of fuel we distribute to how we get it here where we buy it from, so that we buy it from the closest purveyor. Sometimes the closest purveyors may or may not be the price point that you want. So you have to still think about how do you protect the taxpayer and the institution from price points, but at the same time, protect the planet by thinking about how you supply locally, think about how we purchase food. We're right in the breadbasket part of the state near the Skagit Valley, not far from the breadbasket on the east side, in terms of the whole Wenatchee and central region, and why wouldn't we be buying within 100 to 200 miles so what you can do in terms of how you spend each dollar in what you buy to build a life at the university and keep things running can make such an enormous difference.

Dave Karlsgodt 32:08
How long have you been thinking and talking this way at the University of Washington was this it was this something that you were involved with in the, you know, the early days as in 20 years ago,

Anne Eskridge 32:17
I would say 15 years ago, at least 15 years ago in terms of looking more broadly at what we purchase and how we purchase it and where we purchase it from. And that's, I'm proud to be able to say it's been that long, there have been other wonderful people in the university like Claudia Christensen and others that are a part of our larger procurement group of people and our larger procurement umbrella of the institution, who've been working terribly hard at this to figure out ways where we buy furniture a certain way or we develop contracts a certain way and certain vendors and providers getting on with the University at good price points, working with our office supply vendors to say we Want to look at your green line of products and even certain office supply vendors that are green providers and everything they can sell to the institution. So we're really proud of those efforts. And that can really move the needle environmentally and practically in terms of the difference we make in our world.

Dave Karlsgodt 33:19
So that's, I guess that's another similar topic area to transportation, right? Because it's, you're not controlling the economy directly, but you're a major influencer of it and, and how you operate actually can move the needle on the entire state region, you know, and eventually country in the world, I suppose. Well, what about what about water? I know that's another topic that you've had near and dear to your heart. And,

Anne Eskridge 33:41
yes, it's been a real pleasure to work with the Salmon Safe certification program that came to the University I think it's been over nine maybe 10 years ago. The university touches the waters and the boundary waters of the Puget Sound and the salmon safe certification program is a very scientifically based way of looking at how we handle our stormwater, it has to do with how we even clad our roofs on campus. It has to do with how we take care of our streets on campus. It has to do with how we even treat our roads when it snows. It has to do with how we manage our 600 acres of grounds in terms of the trees and plants and lawns of the institution, how we take care of them in the summer when irrigation is needed sometimes and it isn't our gloomy nine months of rain, so that any runoff that makes its way to the Puget Sound is in the best condition it can be in before it hits the larger ecosystem. And it's been fascinating in terms of how much that touches everything from what are we doing for green roofs. What are we doing for cistern systems? What are we doing to manage run offs maybe from how we've clad particular rooves so that it's treated before it goes into the stormwater system, labeling all our stormwater outlets to make sure people on campus and know that it's headed to the sound versus ones that are headed to the sanitary sewer system. So that inappropriate dumping or even just understanding and education that that's where that's headed, how we treat our fleet in terms of leaks and oils and preventative maintenance of how we care for our vehicles on campus. And what are we going to do each year as we build buildings to build them better in terms of how we deal with our stormwater management. So it certainly is something that I'm not a subject matter expert on we have civil engineers that understands or monitor system better than I but it was a perfect role for a generalist in terms of but this involves transportation, but this involves grams care. But this involves our trades in terms of roofing, but this involves whether or not we use pesticides and herbicides and fungicides on campus. I think maybe maybe my new motto needs to be, you know, Mistress of hodgepodge it because it involves so many different things across so many different disciplines and pieces. It's like, okay, and how can you pull this together and show what the university is doing to protect our stormwater and to protect the Puget Sound. And certainly with the horrific tragedy that we all witnessed of the death of a young Orca that was born recently and carried by her mother.

Dave Karlsgodt 36:37
Yeah, that was pretty rough.

Anne Eskridge 36:38
Oh, it was horrific to watch a mother Orca with a dead baby for days relative to her mourning of that it made me very made me terribly proud to have protected our waters and the ways that we have done and we need to do more.

Dave Karlsgodt 36:53
Just for listeners that may not understand we actually have salmon that spawn in the creeks in the city of Seattle. So it's still very much like, well, it's very urban it's

Anne Eskridge 37:02
and and I can't help but tell this story and my father fought in World War Two and he was stationed at it would be Island. And during his time when he was stationed at Whidbey Island, he was quite a fellow. He told me it was important to make good friends with two people, the guy in the kitchen and the guy in the motor pool. And the reason for that is is that the guy in the kitchen would pack him a lunch and the guy motor pool would check out a boat for him and he would go salmon fishing when he was stationed it would be when he did that in the, I guess that would be the 40s he said you could catch salmon. He'd love to exaggerate as a good southerner, you know, he you could catch salmon on a piece of cheese. But you could catch salmon in all levels of the water. You could catch salmon in five feet. You could catch salmon in 15 feet. You could catch salmon at 20 feet and then the list goes on. When I came to work in the northwest, my father had grown quite old at that point. It was a privilege for us for 10 years before he passed to go salmon fishing. My dad and I caught salmon at 50 feet. And there when you looked at the radar as you were fishing in the Puget Sound you saw that aware they were and how few and my dad mourned the change in terms of what was happening with salmon in the Puget Sound. He was still glad they were there, the salmon and the fish and obviously how they feed the Orca, but saw the change that it happened to our waters and I'm glad more are seeing that now than just a leisure fishermen that we need to reclaim. I know that there are Native Americans that talk about the salmon being so prevalent that you could walk on their backs. You know, I dream for that. Recurring that that is what we need to see for ourselves, not just for the sake of the Orca, we need to see that for ourselves. I'm hopeful with concerted effort and programs will continue to see protections or the Puget Sound and they're really for us and make it safer and better for all of us in the future.

Dave Karlsgodt 39:11
I one of the things I do on my daily walks is I go walk around where the new light rail station is just to tie this all back together and North Gate and there's a creek that runs through that area that they daylight it about eight years ago used to be when I first moved there was a giant concrete parking lot of broken glass and nobody was ever parked there. So it was just a big waste of space. And now it's it's actually got a community and movie theater and stuff but it also has this huge bioswales running through the middle of it. It's gorgeous. Yeah, and it's you know, I see blue herons in there. Now I see you know, all sorts of great stuff and it feeds right into Thornton Creek which eventually

Anne Eskridge 39:47
Isn't it wonderful that doing the right thing helps us all. I think we have sometimes a spotlight piece of this is helping the Orca or this is helping the salmon why I've seen through these efforts is you get a more beautiful commute, parents are taking care of this is a place you can take your children to and show them as a wonderful walk on the creek. So it's it's not just the Orca that benefits or the salmon that come back. It's all of us get to benefit from creating a better place for the planet to live and survive.

Dave Karlsgodt 40:24
Indeed, yeah, pulling those threads together, which is great, which we've covered a lot but also uncovered about 10 more things that I didn't get to talk about.

Anne Eskridge 40:33
I'd love to talk a bit about electric transportation. Yes,

Dave Karlsgodt 40:36
well, and actually one of the questions I was going to ask just briefly is the scooters haven't really hit Seattle like they have some other areas and curious to get your thoughts on that.

Anne Eskridge 40:45
We have an interesting part of how we look at transportation on campus and some of it is through the lens of a wait for it. Our Harborview trauma doctors.

Dave Karlsgodt 40:57
Geez, okay. Not were I thought you were going but keep going.

Anne Eskridge 41:03
I know that they're literally on the front lines of taking care of people that had been involved in pedestrian vehicle bicycle scooter, Accidents and incidents. The idea of bringing scooters onto campus, we know that we can't market forces away from campus. We haven't been able to say no to Uber and Lyft and it's not necessarily that we want to we haven't said no to bike share. And we haven't we've wanted that to come. But I believe we're going to say no two scooters, and it's because of what we've learned from our Pac 12 colleagues what we've learned from other big 10 schools, and what we can see plane on its face. As far as scooters with riders that don't have helmets can travel at speeds much faster than the bike share bikes and helmets are not a part of what People think to put on when they jump on a scooter. So we know that students will and faculty and staff will use them to come to campus. But we're not planning on getting into a vendor or procurement relationship with scooter providers. We really believe just like you said, as a commuter on campus that you can get up and down our critical slopes on a bike share. This doesn't fill another transportation niche. This just gives us another point of risk. It's a risk to the ADA community, meaning folks that are mobility impaired in terms of where people put scooters and how they throw them down, and the speed of which people travel on them and the lack of a helmet and a helmet system for folks that use them so we know they will come. But we're going to continue to provide bikes we're going to continue to provide our wonderful transit pass and we will work with the scooter companies to make sure that as they come on to campus and people use them from other locations off campus that they redeploy them off campus and then We continue on with our robust Bike Share.

Dave Karlsgodt 43:03
right? Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, they are certainly a lot of fun to ride but they are terrifying. And if I think about my kids riding them, that puts it more in the Harborview Medical Center perspective.

Anne Eskridge 43:13
And frankly, I don't want to give Harborview more customers.

Dave Karlsgodt 43:16
So yeah, they've got plenty to discuss. Okay, what's your idea? We're going somewhere.

Anne Eskridge 43:23
So what we talked about how bikes electric bikes are a game changer. But of course, what we know is really, electric vehicles are an amazing game changer. Everybody in the country pretty much knows when you say Tesla, what that means. And so the whole emergence of electric transportation is really exciting. There two pieces that I'm terribly proud about, and I would say in an emerging third piece, I was part of brain some of the initial electric cars to campus or hybridize cars. I can certainly claim we absolutely brought the first plug in hybrid to campus as a part of a research project and that car is still in our fleet and still being used today. And that is over. I think 11 or 12 years ago that we've brought the first plug in hybrid. We now have electric bikes that deliver mail but before we had electric bikes we had our first mail truck, which is a large delivery vehicle that was a hybridize vehicle. We jumped wholeheartedly into a fleet in terms of our Prius vehicles. So we are in a process of electrifying our fleet, we actually hope to move to placing solar in some of our transportation facilities like our structural garages, so that providing the electricity comes from solar power, and we're just pleased. It's amazing when you do the math associated with electrification of vehicles, about care for that vehicle, and I'll use a personally Example. I was an early adapter and purchased a leaf and I have done two things, three things. Now with my leaf that I purchased in 2011. I bought a new battery, I bought a set of tires, and I bought wiper blades. And that's amazing. It is a game changer in terms of costs for the consumer. It benefits both the pocketbook and the planet. And so electrification of vehicles is huge associated with the change that it can make. Obviously vehicle producers, they're doing it in the big arena like buses, and then they're doing in a smaller vehicle like sedans and where the heart areas that mid size vehicle, SUV delivery vehicle. There's some like garbage trucks out there but getting it into the heavy and mid sized vehicles in terms of electrification is still what they're working on. So we hope as an institution to continue to electrify our fleet, it will save the planet, it will save costs. It's just an exciting enterprise because it's a win win win across the board. Now the Secretary of Transportation Secretary Millar, would say, well, then that puts us in a tough spot. And he's very pro electric vehicle, I believe I don't want to speak for him. But that what we know in terms of what we've gotten over the years in terms of fuel tax,

Dave Karlsgodt 46:28
Right, because that's how we pay for our roads.

Anne Eskridge 46:30
That's right. So we've got to figure out ways beyond the fuel tax, to take care of the infrastructure we have for our vehicles, but not necessarily through what it costs for gas because there's a payback. So the tough rub right now is figuring out how we can take care of our larger infrastructure by not necessarily putting more vehicles on it. And then by figuring out how to do that with different kinds of vehicles that aren't using as much fuel that are riding on that infrastructure.

Dave Karlsgodt 46:58
Yeah, let me follow up with a couple of calls there because by the time this airs, we will have released a conversation with Arjun Sarkar from UC Santa Barbara. And I've talked about some of these topics as well. One thing he brought up was purchasing used electric vehicles. They've been buying least return leafs, for example for the campus, and he was claiming that they are just cheaper, like outright cheaper than the equivalent sedans are you finding things like that as well.

Anne Eskridge 47:25
It can work. As a LEAF owner and and overseeing our fleet. There still are enormous challenges with the first generation of leafs associated with range anxiety. Sure, and even with simple things that affect range like so I'll use this kind of time of year is a good example and this doesn't affect Santa Barbara and that is when you put on heat inside of an old leaf it costs you miles very quickly and if you get stuck in traffic, or if you have to, even in the city go a small distance sometimes Because of the hotel features inside of a car, it will drain the range in terms of what happens. And then you get users that get panicky associated with what they're doing, even though it may not be far away, or it may be just a short trip. So with the emergence of the bolts with the emergence of plug in hybrids, and other vehicles that have electric capacity or fully electric, we're tending to stamp out kind of that range anxiety and say, you're going to be all right. If you're in a Bolt, if you're in a hybrid. If you're in a plug in hybrid, like the Prius Prime's, you're going to be fine. There's always going to be if you run out of charge, a gas capability, like in a Prius Prime, with the bolts. This is the great news in terms of the Bolts that's been embraced by our lab medicine community on campus.

Dave Karlsgodt 48:58
Yeah, you were talking about that before we hit record but you're doing, what 300,000 miles a year in those cars?

Anne Eskridge 49:03
Yes, and they're now doing it successfully all electric, I mean, think about just what that does. And we're not putting those fossil fuel waste into the air. And that's because the Bolts and other vehicles that they wipe out the range anxiety issue and the range issues so we're having such success with older generations of vehicles that have matured in the marketplace and, and in what they do in providing electric transportation. So it's, it's wonderful, so we're tending not towards that. I would suggest for the listeners that have everyday commuting needs in town work to their job, this is what those early generation leafs are great for. These are great for going to work. These are great for grocery trips. These are great for your kids first vehicle

Dave Karlsgodt 49:53
it would have been great for me to come over here instead of having to take an Uber because my car was getting the oil change today, right? Yeah.

Anne Eskridge 50:00
Exactly, that instead of for business mobility like California is doing so why I poked at California is they have a warmer climate. People don't turn on the defrost and need to warm up a bit and the damp cold and so they aren't perfect for our weather situation. But they are perfect for so many markets and so many uses and they're perfect to buy for a family for a reasonable price used electric car for day to day commuting back and forth to work and your errands and tasks.

Dave Karlsgodt 50:32
Yeah, we're actually in the market for one right now. In fact we test drove our neighbors the other day

Anne Eskridge 50:37
Very good. Well good luck.

Dave Karlsgodt 50:38
So moving on one more transportation topic though: buses you are talking about electric buses now are you do you own some

Anne Eskridge 50:45
We don't and what is what is rough and tumble about that and we may be able down the road partner with Seattle City Light or with King County Metro is the infrastructure you need to charge a boss and that is So different than what you need to charge individual fleet vehicles. So we've we've expanded our fleet charging and our public charging on campus enormously in the past year. But what it takes to charge a bus is significant. If we can find the dollars to do that, then it'd be silly for us not to move in that direction just like Metro has. Part of it is doing the right thing takes the right amount of money. And we have so many right things that we could do is that I wish for advancement in terms of going out for money, private public partnerships, working with other investors and other needs. But the infrastructure required to charge electric vehicles is significant.

Dave Karlsgodt 51:43
Yeah I know, we should clarify, because I know that running through campus of this Metro has electric lines, there are electric trolley buses that we've had since the electric trolley was here, right those around forever. But those are different. Those are not like the proterra or the BYD buses. Exactly.

Anne Eskridge 51:57
Exactly. And if we can figure out a way even to Do both and that would be great by using the wire. So or by using procuring other. So there's some partnerships and vendors that are starting to come to the table saying we'll take care of those kinds of things. So as those emerge more in terms of new markets and new ways to deliver that were wide open to hearing what vendors have to say. And many times because the new manufacturers want the business, they're then willing to work with us in terms of what does then that look like in terms of how they can help that happen.

Dave Karlsgodt 52:31
Got it. So yeah, lots of pieces to put together. So it's not just buying the bus. Right. All right. Well, last kind of wrap up question. Then you started in psychology and then I guess what did you went into the business degree?

Anne Eskridge 52:43
Yeah, I did a degree in student personnel in higher education. So the first half of my career actually was in student affairs. That's right, okay. migrated into business affairs, kind of seen both parts of the house of higher education. The intrapersonal and interpersonal part in terms of Student Affairs and what it means to have a meaningful experience at a university in terms of student development and higher education administration. And now the business end of things. How can we save the taxpayer money, the institution money? And how can we do the right thing with our business dollars in terms of making University work?

Dave Karlsgodt 53:21
Right. Okay. Well, so my question then would be if you're giving advice to people that may be listening, so I'm sure many of them are students or early career sustainability professionals? What advice would you give them for the next 20, 40 years into their career?

Anne Eskridge 53:37
Facts and data are your friends, facts and metrics. You know, if you can't measure something, you can't manage it. And I know that makes me sound like a data or business metrics geek and I'd say yes, I've become that it is powerful to get out your computer and figure out How is it better to recycle? I really believe that if you have facts and data behind what does it mean to recycle things and how that keeps things out of the landfill, and how you don't have to then pay landfill costs make a difference in terms of why you would want to do things. Knowing how you're going to save the institution money with an electric vehicle versus a fossil fuel vehicle makes a difference. Because the price point of an electric vehicle versus a fossil fuel vehicle causes a delta problem for people. But it's like no, let's look at lifecycle costs for the institution and for the institutions customer. You've got to be willing to do the math of how the planet and the pocket book can simultaneously benefit. And then what happens when you show the math and the institution sees the the wisdom and the logic and still doesn't want to do it. What you have to do is speak truth. To power and you have to be a broken record all the time. Okay? This is what we need to do because it's the right thing, not because it's the least expensive thing. And then I would say, take a page out of what's happening in the world today with Greta Thuneburg with the young woman, the indigenous activists, the Pelletier, young woman that's been recognized by the UN, we need to take a page out of the fact that this big, beautiful blue ball is in real trouble. Our planet is suffering from the effects of climate change, and you must not be silent, you must not be quiet. Sometimes the math will work for you. And then sometimes you have to go beyond the math to doing what's right what we do in the next two days to the next two years. So the next 10 years is going to make a difference as to whether or not our children and our children's children are still here. And I wouldn't have said that 20 years ago I'm saying that today, I want us to stand up and work shoulder to shoulder. And certainly, the sustainability professionals out in colleges and universities are on the front line of that movement. And they need to be loud, proud and truthful about what they need to get the job done.

Dave Karlsgodt 56:17
Excellent. Well, I appreciate all of the threads you've been able to pull together on this conversation and just, you know, give me a lot of new things to think about, I'm sure for the listeners as well. So thanks for taking the time to do this today.

Anne Eskridge 56:29
Thanks for listening.

Dave Karlsgodt 56:31
That's it for this episode. If you'd like to learn more about an the University of Washington, or any of our other podcast episodes, you can visit us on the web at campusenergypodcast.com. A special thanks to Kaia Findlay who helped edit and produce this episode and Claudia Frere-Anderson for connecting me with Anne in the first place. If you're a Twitter user, you'll find us at @energypodcast, and you can also find our page on LinkedIn. This show is a free service but if you like what you hear, consider leaving rating review or just telling a friend about the show. As always, thanks for listening.

So let's try a sound check. All right, how about Betty Botter bought some butter.

Anne Eskridge 57:15
Betty Botter bought some butter but she said her butters bitter if I put it in my batter it'll make my batter bitter so she bought a bit of better butter put it in her bitter batter made her bitter batter Betty. So tis better Betty Botter bought a bit of better butter.

Dave Karlsgodt 57:31
Thank you very much.

Anne Eskridge 57:31
You're welcome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai